The Mormon Question
Honestly we at the Cooler are uniformly cringing as we put this topic on the blog. I don't want to post about it, the rest of the staff doesnt either, but these are the facts:
1. Romney is the frontrunner/co-frontrunner in Iowa. So this matters.
2. He seems to be the only guy that fires up the commenters
3. The results are significant.
A gallup poll, posted in full over at Race42008 asks if Americans are ready to elect a (insert minority group here) President.
61% said they think we're ready for a woman, 58% an african-american, 55 percent said we are ready for a Jewish President.
Only 29% think we are ready for a Mormon President. 66% say, not so fast. That is a huge gap. The only groups that scored lower were atheists and homosexuals.
So whether or not we should talk about this, or we want to talk about this, everyone has to admit that this is a significant figure. Americans might not be quite ready for a Mormon.
Maybe if the country becomes more educated on Mormonism that will help, but national political campaigns are hard enough without having to be campaigning for yourself and your religion.
29%... That's a long row to hoe.
posted by Caucus Cooler at 10/04/2006
57 Comments:
This poll is really going to provide comfort to us activists who have been skeptical of the Morman religion because we now know we are definitely not alone.
Hmmm.... poll should ask if people are ready for a JEDI president.... just as relevant, it is....
Mitt is a stud and the only people who care about this crap are those with shadow campaigns to trash him(insert McCain's name here).
Remember, only front-runners get attacked in October of 2006 for a 2008 race.
Yoda, how is this not relevant? 66% of America is not ready for a Morman President and there is a Morman making a very serious run for that office.
If Romney was a homosexual would you be making the same case?
Oh wait, Jedi's are gay. So I guess you already answered that question.
This is a huge issue with people. Romney's religion is odd. Who else never takes off their underwear except for bathing! Who else thinks they will die and become a god of their own planet? Who else thinks it is wrong to consume caffeine? Who else thinks you should get advice from the dead? Who else is involved in secret ceremonies that keep out family members from weddings? This guy is not going to make it.
George Allen is probably happy to know that 55% of the people think we're ready for a Jewish President.
Who else is a religious bigot but an anonymous "self-proclaimed evangelical voer"
You aren't going to make to heaven on the track your heading buddy.
(BTW Mitt drinks Caffeine)
WAR Pepsi
I think its clear that Anons are phags actually.....
Why would an "evangelical voter" have to hide his or her identity?
Are you ashamed of your faith or just afraid to show your bigotry?
you forgot #4, that the Cooler is run by McCain people.
Cooler: here's the thing...
All these profile polls are totally meaningless except to provide fodder for discussions such as these that won't really bear on any outcomes. Profile vs. profile is pointless because at the end of the day there are real human beings who have to stand for office.
So let's say Mitt Romney is fortunate enough to win Iowa, NH, and then march through SC to MI and AZ and gets the nomination (all totally plausible and having nothing to do with his religion). Let's also say Hillary Clinton enjoys the same march.
Now ask yourself: are people going to vote for "a woman" vs. "a mormon", or are they going to vote for Hillary vs. Mitt?
I think you know the answer and I think you know who wins.
Thanks for the post, but what will really matter is how he stands up through the early contests and how he presents as the country quickly gets to know him. Being Mormon didn't matter when he stood for election against a tough Catholic woman in Mass named perfectly, Shannon O'Brien.
Let's move on, or we should also ask if Americans are ready to vote for someone who teeters on the outlying edge of the actuarial tables. I'm sure there will be some meaningful discussion about that at some point. This is most certainly not an up-or-down vote on Mormonism any more than it's an up-or-down vote on being 80-years-old at the end of the second term.
Damn. All that AND he can snowboard like nobody's business!
Hillary or Mitt? That would be a very tough decision.
Burton: I thought you were focused on 2006? If so, then why are you taking a jab at potential opponent?
Hypocrite.
Leave it to the Cooler staff to talk about "hoes."
Nice work fellas!
It seems to me that this "Is the country ready for a Mormon President" debate is akin to the "Is the country ready for a Catholic President" debate held 50! years ago. In the end people are going to vote for the person who they think will do the best job. Not who is a member of an "approved" religion. Hey the country was ready for Harry Reid, Mass was ready for Romney, and the Eagles for Andy Reid. And who can forget about Napoleon Dynamite. Gosshh!
I've noticed that these blogs are rampant with anonymous gutless wonders that throw bombs at individuals (usually paid to do so) and there are less than a handful (at least in Iowa) of folks who have the testicular fortitude to stand by their beliefs/statements and not hide thier identity.
Until you can be adult enough to not hide, your comments will not be not taken seriously as we all consider the source of "anonymous" bloggers.
And my name is Todd Henderson (IA)for any of you that still haven't figured that out yet.
WAR anybody but anons
The metaphor is actually "a long 'row' to hoe" not "road".
1. Mr. Anon "11:11.." The Cooler is run my multiple people, none of whom are retained by or have endorsed a Presidential contender, and a couple of us have different Presidential preferences.
We have always said that if anyone in the Cooler staff joins an 08er, we'll be the first to tell you. It might even warrant a "breaking" headline...
2. Anon 307- Thank you for pointing out our idiocy.
3. Burton- Very reasoned response. That's why it's nice to have you around the Cooler, we throw out a topic you give an intelligent Romney response. You have to agree with us though that this topic merits discussion.
First of all I agree with Murphy, the question is phrased wrong. Most Mormons I know would answer that they don't think the country is ready for a Mormon POTUS either, yet they would vote for Mitt. Because of their history, I believe Mormons (we) are oversensitive about real and perceived prejudices against us.
Secondly, there are 3 groups in play when you talk about the "Religion Issue":
1)Someone who's never heard of a Mormon
2)Someone who has heard of them but has a favorable impression because of the Mormons they have known
3)Those who think Mormons are crazy cultist freaks.
The last group has already made up their minds so no amount of adult discussion will matter. The second group will largely not have a problem with Mitt. The first group is the crux of the matter - will they listen to their neighborhood baptist preacher or visit www.mormon.org to find out more?
The last thing to be seen is how influential will the vocal-antis be? Who knows. I do know, EvangelicalVoter 10:04, that I could correct your misconceptions but this is neither the time nor the place.
Interesting that you say you can but you don't. These are not misconceptions. Have you been sealed in the temple or are you just a wanna be real mormon? Maybe you can talk to your dead relatives and find out who I am and send the missionaries over here. I am sure they will come with their holy undies on so they will be safe in a degenerates house. If people are ready to vote for a mormon then I would say they are ready to have a muslim as POTUS too. Scary.
hmm...evangelical voter breaking the 9th and 11th commandment....
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Welcome to the Cooler angel(a)
Actually, educating the public about Mormonism won't help. It will hurt -- a lot. Just a sampling of what Mormons actually believe:
1) There is more than one God
2) Earth's God is a resurrected Human from another planet
3) Jesus Christ is just one son of one God (among billions of other Gods who also have children the equal of Jesus)
4) Mormons believe they, themselves, will be Gods of their very own planets some day (yes, Romney thinks he will BE a God)
So, when Romney says "Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior" what he actually means is "The son of a resurrected human from another planet is my Lord and Savior."
This all FUNDAMENTALLY FALSE in the eyes of Christians. The Mormon "religion" is very dangerous because they have adopted commonly used biblical characters (Jesus, for example) but have applied TOTALLY different meanings to them. This way, they can call themselves believers in Jesus Christ, but they DON'T bother to say it is a DIFFERENT, NON-EXISTENT Jesus.
EvangelicalVoter 10:17.
Wasting my breath by defending to you what I believe would be a waste of my time.
This thread is open to discuss "the mormon question" in regards to romney's candidacy. It's not a post titled "the tenets of mormonism". If anyone really DOES have a question about what I believe and do and why, I will post my email on my profile page.
Paul S -
You are the perfect example of what we hope people will not listen to when it's time to find out about mormonism. Thanks guys for exemplifying the vocal anti-mormonism to a "t". You can say whatever you want but nothing good can ever come from arguing about beliefs.
p.s. Any person can make someone else's beliefs sound crazy if they wanted to. For example: the Son of God was an illegitimate child born in a barn with animals and raised by today's equivalent of a fast food worker? Yeah right!
Muslim=Mormon? That is wrong on so many levels. When you get your foot out of your mouth, I'd love to hear the rationale behind that. Wait. Let me get you a shovel first.
murph - you call romney HONEST! what a joke. is this the same murphy who famously said romney was a pro life mormon faking pro choice!
so was romney faking anti gun, pro homosexual, pro choice liberal when he ran for us senate!
i suppose he just evolved on all those issue now that he has a gop primary for president.
the guy is a dishonest liar and you said as much in a national magazine. either he was a liar in 1994 and 2002 or he is a liar now.
If you can accept a mormon's wacky religion then why not a muslim. Sounds like you guys talk out of both sides of your mouth. I thought religion doesn't matter?!!?!
Since when has it been considered noble to have one set of policy positions and a seperate set of personal beliefs?
How could such a person be trusted on anything?
The fact that Mitt Romney finds that acceptable makes him unfit for any public office.
I never said Romney is a bad person. Indeed, I am sure most Mormons in general are good people. That does not mean he will not be viewed as being a member of a dangerous cult by most members of traditional (and historically based) Christian denominations.
Since Murphy doesn't believe in dodging questions, please answer:
Mormon's "claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God" -- who is God to you? Is there more than one? Where is he from? How did he become a God? Can you become a God some day?
We do accept converts - we should not support a person for the highest office in the land who so clearly gives public positions that are determined by the next election they face.
It shows a lack of honesty, integrity, and all the things that make the GOP funadamentally superior to the party of Clinton.
Mitt simply cannot be trusted.
wrong anon
Murphy - you are the bigot. You can't accept anyone who goes with their religions beliefs. I happen to believe that Mormons are a cult. I express my belief that I do not want to have a cultist as President. This is my belief yet you continue to belittle it. It was not that long ago that Mormons believed that black people were cursed. Guess it is convenient when you can keep changing your laws all the time by writing your own Bible.
To the Cooler,
Thanks for the welcome! It's much appreciated.
I couldn't help but notice that every time mormanism comes up, there is a flurry of commentary. The intensity of debate is very noticable. No other 08'er is getting this much attention. Mitt's attention on these blogs is almost solely associated with dicussion of mormanism. This is the biggest topic of the 80'ers. Even though it perhaps SHOULDN'T matter, it clearly does and is a big minus for Mitt and worthy of a downgrade in the odds in my mind.
Evangelical voter,
Hmmmm..... You aren't by any chance from the church in Kansas we keep hearing about are you?
You know, the "tolerant" one.
I can make a website called www.mormonsformccain.com even though I'm not a Mormon. Plus, how many Mormons consider themselves evangelical?
Romney's spin: every time they mention my weird relgion or belief, simply rebut by saying "people only talk about front-runners."
I admit, Romney is a good politician. He's smooth as silk. He could be a television president. Plus he sounds good because he politicks like Clinton did (poll=current stance on an issue). But his religion will be a problem for a lot of people. You have to accept that.
Hmmmm... I call myself a Jedi and I support Mitt Romney for President, for the Red Side of the Force is his ally....
And a powerful ally it is....
Murph, I'm glad they don't. I, like many Americans, know little about Mormonism. I enjoy reading what Fuller writes. He seems like he has a nice grasp on it and explains things well. But what he doesn't explain is the incredibly weird stuff. The undies. The planets and gods. The amulets and chants. They point out everything Mormonism has with traditional Christianity and leave out everything that makes it a cult.
OK, so maybe I know more about Mormonism than I let on. But only because I looked it up.
The Governor of Utah supports McCain.
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Listen to Yoda. He has the Force!
Sacred, not secret, right? The things you don't talk about. The garmies. The things that will freak other people out. Just don't mention them. Brush it off in jest. These things are sacred, not secret.
God before Country. Always. Being an American will not get you into Heaven.
Mormonism is a cult whether you like it or not.
Needy people join the Mormon church. Easily swayed they are.
We quit reading this along time ago in case anyone cares.
CC -- you were asking for it. Any post about "The Mormon Question" will bring the anti-mormons out of the closet spewing all this junk. If you don't want to have all this crap on your site -- stick to the issues.
As this post shows it's not an issue as it only matters to small minded people.
If we take compare the size of this thread to any other topic published on this blog as use that as a barometer of interest level, I'd say you may underestimate the number of people who might care about it. They may be small minded in your view, but I think there may be a whole big bunch of them that vote.
It's a problem. That's a reality. Might not be nice, but it's reality.
Really interesting how the Mormon defenders on this thread continually try to turn this discussion away from the Mormon doctrine and insist this should be a discussion about "political issues." If you are not ashamed of what you believe, and in fact, are duty bound to recruit more people to the Mormon flock, what better place or opportunity to do so? You know why. You know that it will be the end of the Romney candidacy.
In fact, if I were the holy-grand-pooh bah of the Mormon Church, I'd be BEGGING Romney NOT to run because the white-hot light his candidacy will shed on Mormon doctrine and practices will be very, very damaging. Nowhere to hide, my friends.
There have been lots of topics that have brought about high post counts. We made the post about how we quit reading, just in case there were overtly racist comments in here that needed to be deleted that we had missed.
Everybody's touchy today.
I'm an unaplogetic LDS living in SoCal and I've enjoyed reading through this thread.
A few comments regarding Mitt Romney as POTUS and some of the comments about my beliefs:
* As for how Romneys function as leaders of government, check Mitt's and his father's records as pragmatic, successful, and well-regarded governors.
* Here's a link to a thoughtful, if not 100% enthusiastic, posting by John Mark Reynolds, editor of "The Scriptorium," and faculty member at Biola University: http://www.scriptoriumdaily.com/middlebrow/archives/romney-in-the-dock/
* I don't foresee any problem for people of any faith with a Pres. Romney. Non-LDS in Utah, where any LDS threat religious freedom would be realized, to have complete religious. A Catholic friend was apprehensive about visiting Salt Lake City with me until she noticed the Catholic and Protestant church buildings there that were built in the 1800's.
One of our Articles of Faith, the 11th, says, "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." A passage in our scriptures says, "We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world’s goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship." (D&C 134:10)
In fact, it seems to be the non-LDS that constrain our freedom of religion, as documented in these videos and photos from our General Conferences and other LDS events:http://www.fairlds.org/Anti-Mormons/Street_Preachers.html
* Any lingering questions about LDS as rascists should be answered by LDS of color. Some places to look are:
-- Gladys Knight, who joined the Church in 1997(http://www.suvchoir.org/specialmessagene.html)
-- http://www.blacklds.org/
-- http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/blackmormon/homepage.html
-- http://www.meridianmagazine.com/photoessay/040204nungua.html
-- http://www.meridianmagazine.com/photoessay/040113celebration6.html
-- http://messengerandadvocate.wordpress.com/2006/07/24/update-from-the-west-african-ghana-mission/
(check photos at end)
-- As for the claimed belief that LDS believe we can become gods, NEVER in the sense of becoming anywhere equal to God. But what would you call a being who can heal the sick, walk on water, foretell the future, and call fire from the sky? If not aware of the context of this question, you may say that is a god. Likewise, we believe that as we become more Christ-like, we may become joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17) and be glorified with him. If His followers can work miracles on earth, why not in heaven. Our scriptures tell us, however, speaking of those who receive the highest rewards, who are "sanctified," "And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and received of his fulness; And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever." (D&C 76:20-21). We always will worship Him -- he always will be our God, our Eternal Father. This is not, and never will be, something so casual as simply following the guy ahead of us in line. It's a matter of worshipping forever.
* Polygamy hasn't come up yet, but here's an interesting observation from Salt Lake City's non-Mormon daily: "The Salt Lake Tribune reports that Governor Mitt Romney's great-grandfather had multiple wives and two great-great grandfathers had 10 wives each. The article allows that Romney "is a confirmed monogamist of nearly four decades and polygamy has been absent from his family going back two generations." While some might note the upside of generously sharing those handsome Romney genes in the past, current history is noteworthy. Should Mitt Romney join a 2008 race that included John McCain, Rudy Giuliani, Newt Gingrich and George Allen, the only guy in the GOP field with only one wife would be the Mormon."
Will there be sick people in Heaven? Why would you need to call fire from the sky? Why would you foretell the future? Why would you walk on water? None of that is needed. None of that makes me think one would be a god. Are you going to have your own planet? Have you been sealed to your wife/husband? Do you seek advice of your dead relatives? Why do you not consider the Bible the final Word of God?
Please Answer...thanks,
The examples I gave of healing the sick (as done by many of God's servants who hold his priesthood power, including by your present writer), walking on water (Peter, to meet Jesus), foretelling the future (all writers of the future inspired by the Holy Ghost, cf. 2 Pet 1:20-21), and calling fire from the sky (Elijah vs. priests of Baal, 1 Kgs 18:30-38) were examples of miracles performed by followers of the Lord here on earth. Someone observing these uses of God's power could reasonably consider these people to be gods.
As for having my own planet: no. If we make the very generous assumption that I do receive God's greatest gifts of grace, exaltation to become a joint-heir with Christ as explained in Romans 8, I would live here on glorified Earth with the others of God's children who have been so blessed through Christ's atonement. (Rev 4:6, D&C 77:1, 130:9). The idea of a separate planet isn't found in scripture or in our orthodox doctrine.
Yes, I have been sealed to my wife. I very much want to be in the Lord and He has told us in the scriptures that "neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord." (1 Cor 11:11) and when Christ gave Peter (Matt 16:19) and the rest of the early apostles (Matt 18:18) His power, he promised them that "Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." I'm grateful that the Lord restored this binding/sealing power in His restored church so that we can have this blessing today.
I don't seek advice from my dead relatives in the way that I take your meaning. However, things I learned from them while they lived and things I learn from reading journals and testimonies of those who lived before my time have been helpful to me.
As for considering the Bible the final Word of God, if you mean in the sense that God will give no more of His word than we have in the Bible, I do not believe this for two reasons: 1) nowhere in it or elsewhere has God said those are His final words to us and 2) He has given more of his words than the Bible contains. Instead of laboring this point, I'll recommend you read God's answer to this in 2 Nephi 29 (available here, if you don't have a copy: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/29/3-4,6,10#3) The Book of Mormon is a wonderful of example of more of God's word that's consistent with what's revealed elsewhere. The Bible cites quite a few books that it doesn't contain (see here for a listing: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/l/40), which indicates it's incomplete as we have it now.
If you mean your question in the sense of the Bible being the final authority, I leave it to God to be that. At one time, His word was to avoid the forbidden fruit if man wanted to live forever, later forbidden fruit wasn't important, but building an ark was, then arks were past and it was time to leave Egypt, then it was time to move past Mosaic Law and accept Christ's new covenant regardless of what those not in accord with God's will did read from the scriptures then available, then it was time to accept Jesus' more-recent restoration of His church and priesthood regardless of what those not in accord with God's will now read from the scriptures that were available before He granted us more of His word. A problem with those not called of God as was Aaron (Heb 5:4) claiming the Bible as final authority is that they frequently violate the Bible's meaning with their private interpretations that Peter warned against (as cited earlier in 2 Pet 1:20-21).
However, we all can have the Comforter, the Holy Ghost guide us into all truth (John 14:26, 16:13, Moroni 10:4-5). This completes the process God uses to give us scripture: it is written, as explained in Peter, by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost who also can guide us to all truth as we read it. As the Lord explained it elsewhere, "Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way? And if it be by some other way it is not of God. And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way? If it be some other way it is not of God. Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth? Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together." (D&C50:17-22)
Or, as Paul taught, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor 2:14)
Thank you for the opportunity to answer your questions. I came by my knowledge of the truthfulness of this by much study and prayer, but more so by God's gift of Christ's atonement saving my life and healing my soul (see here for my recounting: http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2582#comment-97137). Since that experience I glory in God's mercy and I hope everyone can find the same joy I have.
I hope this is helpful.
You can't really cite the Book of Mormon to non-mormons and expect it to hold any water.
And to consider yourself in the same light as an apostle is a little self-righteous.
There are too many people who make too many assumptions about Mormanism. I'm not morman, but honestly, if you learn about it, it's really not as crazy as everyone seems to think. I makes me so angry how ignorant people can be.
Mormonism will be a plus for Romney in the Iowa caucus. No group will be better organized to flood the caucus than Iowa's Mormons.
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